Rules for retcons?

Consistency is good. But characer development is also good. Static characters make for bad stories. And the biggest problem I have with Byrne is that he's quite willing to retcon away any character growth for a character if he doesn't approve of it, but he simultaneously does the most egregiously *wrong* things with his characters at the exact same time.

Thus it's unpardonable, in Byrne's mind, for Sandman to reform and this character growth must be wiped out through the use of a retcon. (One wonders why Byrne didn't revert Hawkeye back to being a supervillain when he had the chance.) But he's simultaneously capable of having Superman kill people and Susan Storm become evil because she's tired of being married to Reed Richards.

In other words, my biggest problem with Byrne is that he's a raging hypocrite. His rule isn't 'the original concept of a character should never be changed' (which is a stupid rule in any case), it's 'nobody else gets to play with these toys but me'.

Byrne also has a tendency to completely screw up a book and then take off.

It should be noted that, according to every report I've ever heard, it was not John Byrne's decision to bring back Jean Grey, but Jim Shooter's.

I don't see how Alicia Master's development under John Byrne was a retcon. It was just plot development: She went from Ben Grimm to Johnny Storm.

The retcon came long after John Byrne left the comic when Alicia Masters suddenly became a skrull for no discernible reason. (If the reason was to 'return her to the original character concept of being Ben Grimm's girlfriend', then why didn't she end up back with Ben Grimm?)

In general, IMO, retcons should only be used in two instances:

(1) Somebody else made a continuity mistake and you need to correct it. (2) To extricate yourself from bad continuity.

Getting out of Teen Tony or the Clone Saga is a legitimate use of a retcon. Because you've got to do something to escape the morass which your creative teams have created. But, of course, that depends on your sense of judgment.

Justin Bacon

from examples he wrote, but whether he'd agree with the codification, I dunno.

Sure.

But given that I like a lot of what he's done and would like to learn from it (while disagreeing with some bits), I have no choice but to do that. It would be better to ask him if that was possible, but as far as I know it isn't possible.

I do however now have your answer, which is good luck for me. Thanks.

From my understanding (or misunderstanding) of what you said, your single 'rule' would seem to be: the storyteller exercises good judgement to do what will have the best results in each case, taking things on a case by case basis, and accepting that which results were good and which bad is a subjective judgement.

I have no argument with that, coming from a guy who can back it up.

Which makes follow-up questions about what kinds of rules you would use at Marvel compared to DC, or in different genres and so on, moot.

Well, I'd still say that it was ultimately Jim Shooter's decision

So it's all YOUR fault?

Whereas I still blame Kurt.

(It's good to have at least *one* creative thing he's 'done' that I really, truly dislike, like a necessary flaw keeping one's power ring from becoming too powerful, or something.....)

I stand corrected.

Justin Bacon

Ah. That makes sense. Fantastic Four #286 was a good issue. It didn't read like something Byrne was forced to write.

Interestingly enough, an issue of Marvel Age (which I don't have anymore) that came out before X-Factor #1 came out said 'Somebody at the office suggested bringing back an old character and we said 'We don't want to bring her back' but then he said 'No, not her!' and explained what he meant and then the idea was pitched to Bob'. I remember the article very well because they were oh so careful not to use the names 'Jean Grey' or 'Phoenix' even though, to me, it seemed as though they'd just given away everything right there and then.

Me too.

I thought he had some objection to it, because he didn't put his name in the credits, but 'You Know Who'

(snip stuff about Byrne)

Somewhere in the rules there needs to be 'consider the ramifications of the retcon within the overall shared universe'.

Superman not being Superboy screws up the Legion. Hippolyta in World War II screws up early WW issues.

and so on...

Good point.