so who has not liked waids run on ff?

500 has sealed the deal, this is one of the worst runs in it's 500 issue lifespan.

claremont's run was more inspired and interesting. that's saying quite a

I have generally enjoyed it. It hasn't been spectacular, but neither has it been painful. For the most part, I think he captured the characters pretty well (although he's ignored some past development, but that's almost necessary at this point in their convoluted continuity). And if the plots were fairly straightforward (mostly variations on Reed's Pride Will Be His Undoing, And He's Taking Everyone With Him), I liked the scripting.

While Reed had to change to overcome Doom in #500, I liked that it was a small change, simply coming to grips with the idea that not only does he not understand magic, he probably can never do so without totally rearranging how he views the world. He did not actually totally rearrange his view of the world, though, for which I'm glad. That sort of wholesale change in the character would *never* stick.

Doom, for his part, has always straddled the line between science and magic, so slipping over to the other side for a while is certainly in character. Once he escapes his demonic masters he may go back to mainly science, though, since he can control it more completely.

Dave Van Domelen, notes it did feel more like a v3 #71 than a #500, though.

(That run really was awful, but I seem to have made my peace with it as the years go by. It's actually a lot of fun when you accept it on its own terms)

I totally agree with all of this. That said, I think his run of Ruse and this one on FF were the best he has done. But given time I would have dropped them both. Kazar is another title that I liked at first but quickly got bored/disgusted with.

A whole lot of the stuff submitted to the Eisner committee does nothing for me.

And FANTASTIC FOUR #400 was a much better 'big' anniversary issue than FANTASTIC FOUR #500. Sue took on a Celestial. How cool is that?

Really? What'd she do against one of them?

They're not THAT bad, but they're hugely overrated. KINGDOM COME is built around a supposed conflict between traditional heroes and pseudo-Image characters which is so absurdly one-sided as to render the whole thing pointless. I've never understood why people think so highly of it. Even if you're looking for Alex Ross art, MARVELS had soul; KINGDOM COME just whines about the 1990s.

Have we all forgotten the Carlos Pacheco run so quickly? That was dreadful towards the end - utterly incoherent and borderline

If you're impllying that the 80s X-Men were not 'flawed but deeply heroic and interesting characters,' I can only conclude that you haven't actually read any X-Men from the 80s. (Now, if you want to talk about the 90s, post-Claremont, that's a different story.)

How can KINGDOM be overrated? Is it even 'rated'? Thought that was pretty much universally thought of as awful...

KINGDOM COME is

Well, considering the status of all those Image characters, (Savage Dragon aside....Spawn doesn't even resemble anything coherent anymore) they might have been right.

I've never understood why people think so highly

Well, part in parcel, it does involve the different in character treatment....Marvels is all about humanity; KC is about 'gods'. But also, KC is a nostalgia/continuity fest in the art; Marvels sets a scale of grandeur.

-Chris C.

as bad as both claremont and pacheco (and even defalco as i've been reminded) i will take doom switching bodies and negitive zone pilgrims over walking equations and doom in flesh armor making deals with devils that he doesn't have the upper hand in. the art at least for those earlier runs was worth it even if the stories fell a bit flat.

giant cockroaches unstable moelcules and the ben grim rap. top it off with out of character potty mouth for sue (which i belive was a jemas decision that started a bit before waid took over) and the ff adventures level art work. . .just a terrible run.